Thursday, October 23, 2008

Why I'm scared

Look, I know pre-election stuff feels a bit like we're on opposing sides of a football game with the left v. right stuff. Really, I distrust most government. I work for a city and get contracted out to state and federal stuff. The people aren't evil, but we often take the path of least resistance, and agencies tend to try to take on more duties to get a bigger slice of the budget pie....So, things just grow.
Like Shoo pointed out, when you have one party in charge of the legislature and one in charge of the executive branch, they sort of bottleneck and limit each other.
Well, the judicial branch has taken to legislating from the bench. The democrats control the house and senate, and we're reaching to the FAR left for the democrat candidate for the presidency.
We are heading for an all left wing government, one that is already starting to defend socialism. This is not what our forefathers had in mind for us. Next time you are in line for the DMV, imagine that you aren't renewing your license, but trying to get medical attention for a very sick child. Imagine you dream of starting a business, but the red tape and stipulations on how you must treat every employee make it impossible. Imagine the unions get so powerful they chase every last industry overseas.
The democrats already have plans to fasttrack quite a few issues dear to them---socialized medicine. More taxes for industry and the real hard working small business owners that work 14 hour days and never take vacations, to make things work and keep people employed. Imagine an eviscerated military, and global threats that are ignored and allowed to fester.
If you plan on voting for Obama/Biden, will you please tell me why? If you are caught up in the charisma, or trying to stick it to somebody, or hate Bush so much you want to send a message, will you please think about the things that have made this nation great and the freedoms you're giving away? Finally, will you explain to me where he money to support it all will come from? This nation is strong, but not indestructible.


Lee said...

dude, watch this

Then this:

Gives me hope. And I think AP's polls are a good sign.

Chimp Jones said...

As I swore off debating this stuff I'll simply point out the following:
Obama will win because 59 percent of the country believe McCain's economic policies favor the rich. Most of the country aren't rich. (source CBS/NYT)

Also: the S word... I come from a country that has global healthcare, that has "socialist" policies that favor nurturing via legislation and honestly it's a pretty decent place to live. Americans fear anything that even vaguely smacks of the old demon communism. Socialism isn't communism.. and Obama isn't a socialist. The bush admin and McCain and Obama backed the recent Bailout Pkg. which by some standards may be seen as a socialist intervention in the economy.So if the conservative end of the spectrum backs it and the liberal end does too, what then? Is Bush a socialist? Is McCain?
Bottom line: the current and past iteration of conservative economic policy has proven it's self worthless. (source...well look at the Dow ..ahem)People see this and see at least a glimmer of hope in an Obama presidency.
As far as the sick child scenario goes.. I was once a sick child in the "socialist UK" after a car accident I was treated at the local hospital within minutes and ..well hear I am. My Mother who almost died from what's now a simple fix was treated in a hospital immediately.. admitted for a week and sent home weak but healthy. My Brother In Law who is a doctor in the UK gets financial incentives for making his patients better .. has a very nice sailboat and gets 14 weeks of vacation (BASTARD!!! No I love him really :)) He does well for himself and his family. I know a lot of other people prospering in the UK even though they are going through the same economic travails that we are here in the US. None of them that I know feel less free than I do. My Dad ..a sort of entreprenneurial type.. has over the years started several businesses.. not all of them sucessful but some were and he has prospered in the same way as people do here.. Through hard work and tenacity. It's not that different in a "socialist " country.. It's just fairer and cares more about it's people (source..My own observation)
Hmm this has been rather rambly and I broke my promise :(
OK really.. I PROMISE this time.. Toodles and hope you and your family are well.

Chimp Jones said...

oh and this link is for lee..

a nice meta-analysis of the polls.. not just an average but with mathematical weighting for bias ( the charts I mean the polls are verbatim)

flyingvan said...

Chimp----rants and opposing viewpoints are ALWAYS welcomed here, as long as they don't degrade into name calling and undignified cheap shots.
McCain is too far left for me...I think he's become who he needed to be to make a run at the presidency. I'll still take the 40 year veteran of politics...
I'm not rich, but I believe economic policies that favor the rich are the best thing for the poor. If you think of the populace as a whole, not as rich v. poor, the more that populace is able to grow wealth, the better. I've found that the rich usually don't get rich at the expense of the poor (except in the entertainment, sport, and illicit drug industries) and it's been proven time and time again the GDP goes down when there is more government interference.
As far as caring about the people---I believe that ANY political system---monarchy, theocracy, communism, republic---only works when people at all levels strive to work towards the common good. That said, the smaller the government the better. Go to Mexico---the huge corruption under socialism makes so you have to do business at two levels. The 'mordida' layer is unavoidable, and accountability is very selective. Huge workforce, great weather, rich in natural resources--yet third world poor.
Your healthcare anecdote doesn't really work, and here's why. Emergency medicine systems are independent from health maintenance, or at least should be. Emergency departments can't turn anyone away so end up treating sore throats; very, very inefficient. Emergency care can be well delivered but shouldn't be used for the sick child.
Finally---(this is a source of comfort to me) Once someone is in office of the presidency, lots of the partisan stuff falls away. You represent everyone. A Liberal can easily pass conservative things like military spending; his party will back him because of the person, and the other party will back the issue. The scary part is the big issues that die in committee like powers of unions such, and judicial appointments. 'specially with liberal judges legislating from the bench. It degrades the checks and balances designed very cleverly into our system.

Lee said...


Imagine ER in a country with socialized medicine. You are a cancer patient with a highly compromised immune system. You have a note from your doctor that in case of a visit you must be immediatly sequestered. This action notice is shown to all the proper admission people, who then working "quickly" have you sit in the lobby for six hours.

Welcome to Canada and my late father-in-laws treu story.

I unfortunatly have many such first hand stories about the lack of healthcare under the canadian system. I agree with the founder who says it should be scrapped.

Do we need better access to healthcare for our citizens? Yes

Healthcare prices are going up and up, unless you look at elective proceedures like cosmetic surgery or Lasik. I wish I had all the answers. I would start with Tort reform and getting move towards consumer cash accounts, where you shop and pay.

Walmart did some amazing things with medicine that helped many seniors.

I am reading about cash only doctors who actually have more medical staff then billing staff on thier payroll.

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."--Dr. Milton Friedman

Just imagine trying to scrap a NON-temp one!

The Anonymous Fire Buff said...

As far as healthcare goes, I've personally heard horror stories of being delayed in the ER due to waiting for ILLEAGALS to get treatment. Kids with sore throats are bad enough, but the citizenship issue is downright aggravating. I think you should have to have proof of citizenship before having the privilege of receiving treatment in the first place. Personally, I'd still rather wait hours to receive treatment due to cases such as ear infections and headaches, as long as the folks are real citizens who pay taxes and hence somewhat earn the right to be treated.

In other words: No ID? Too bad. Snag a cab down back down to TJ.

So, what I'm actually attempting to say is, although I overall equally agree/disagree with both sides, I don't think Obama can be trusted with this. Hence goes my vote to the Right. (That is, if I was old enough to vote :D)

Chimp Jones said...

Re: emergency room care.. I used that as I thought the sick child scaenario fit it aptly. Of course health maintenance is the most important component in any system.. My Brother In Law is part of that in general practice in the UK.
The reality of course is that nobody can see the Obama plan as being in any way similar to what the UK and Canada have. Re those systems and the currently existing US one: There are of course horror stories from all. No system is perfect.
"ANY political system---monarchy, theocracy, communism, republic---only works when people at all levels strive to work towards the common good. " This is an excellent point and I could not agree more. This country needs to follow Kennedy's "what can I do for my country" ideal and build a service mentality. Everyone contributing towards the greater good. A reform of the welfare system so that recipients work in public infrastructure restoration to whatever extent they are able in exchange for their "handouts" would engender that mentality and also motivate people to get off welfare and into better paying jobs and education. Obama actually alluded to something along these lines in his convention speech.. I would like it taken further.

More later as I am off for a run now :)
Peace and Chicken Grease

princess slea said...

I have to reference chimp's brother in law and this wonderful life he is living as a doctor under universal medicine. I might be wrong here but I believe he purposefully chose the practice that he has and moved to the Isle because they pay him differently than they do in "true" UK socialized medicine way. Not sure on the details but pretty sure he was NOT being paid well in England.

lee, that is a sad story about your father in law. very sorry for your loss. I know a family with a son who has Downs Syndrome and other bad medical problems particularly with his heart. They are from Canada and when he was born they said he would not have quality of life and told the parents he would have to wait a really long time to get on the list for the surgeries he needed (the way the mom tells the story it's like the doctors hoped he would die before he made the appointment). They moved to the US and had the boy treated and he is now 11 years old and the sweetest boy you'd ever meet.
Who wants other people determining if your child is "worth" saving??

Lee said...

Either Sweden or Norway had no room in the hospitals, so they would euthanize the sick elderly based upon quality of life, to make room.

more horror stories Chimp. I know.

Obama toutes his plan as not being Government run, because you can keep your own insurance.

Umkay, look at the mess in Hawaii with kids healthcare.

Move it away from government, move it into the hands of people.

Chimp Jones said...

But Slea that's not really the point.. his patients are all (almost) NHS patients.. and The fact that he can make whatever he can make is a tribute to the flexibility of the system..Remember the if we treat the UK as a "socialist" system that ought to mean that he'd not be permitted to make more simply by moving to a country practice. You can indeed buy private medicine in the UK.. private rooms... hotel like service.. Immediate access to elective surgery and all UK docs are allowed to be part of that. The system that pays for their education and guarantees them work, doesn't require that they spend their entire working lives laboring for that system...CURSE THEM AND THEIR SOCIALIST WAYS!!! er.. oh wait...ahem

I know that all of you are Conservative and I am the lone Liberal and I know that you think the viewpoints I espouse are wrongheaded and that you have genuine fears for the country under what will likely be a new regime. I ask that you suspend your disbelief if that comes to pass and at least afford the country the benefit of the doubt and assume that democracy allows the choice of the best candidate.I'll happily do the same if the people chose to elect McCain.

Ooo that was all rhymey..
sleep well chaps and ladies.

Chimp Jones said...

oh also re the clips from Lee: FoxNews doesn't really count.. it'd be like me citing MSNBC. Greta ceased to be anything but a shill a long time ago just like Keith and Rachel ...The other video is packed full of anecdotal generalizations and so called comedy. One chap ranting doesn't make a cogent argument.The same can be said of Liberal ranters.
"Either Sweden or Denmark.." Ok you have to pick one if you are going to make the accusation that a country euthanizes it's elderly. I need some citations before we can talk about the statement.
Sorry I didn't mean to ignore your comments earlier I just have a hard time thinking about more than one thing at a time :)
Re: Tort reform: admittedly that's a problem but it's not THE problem. Insurance costs are not really dictated by lawsuits. The majority of insurance based lawsuits end with either a small settlement or a crushing defeat for the plaintiff.
Re Friedman: That's sort of an idealogical disconnect for the two of us. Friedman advocated hands off government, I believe in hands on. To me the concept of the trickledown has never been proven..which is a logical extension of Friedman and I know FV shares that philosophy (The Friedman one not mine hahaha)
It's entirely possible that John McCain will win this election. It's more likely that Obama will win it. Whichever happens, the idea that we must all pul together as a country is the most important. America has always represented something of a beacon to me. A country that represents freedom. That by necessity needs to include tolerance and acceptace.. I sincerely hope that we can all accept one another regardless of what happens next week.

Lee said...

Chimp, The context of my links was something positive for us 'Right' leaners. Your dismissal of Fox and linking it to MSNBC is odd, are you saying that no truth can come from either of these outlets?

As far as the content of the Fox Video, Newt made several truthful statements, do you think he would change what he said if he was allowed on one of the other networks? Or in Person? Dismissing it because it is Fox or MSNBC smacks of elitism.

As for the other, it was not argument, it was statement of position. He laid out the Republican Platform in a very clear consise manner. Give me a link to a Liberal who does the same.

It was Norway, sorry my muddled mind could not walk you through it.

This was such a large story at the time, I figured you would google it, my bad.

Torts, lawsuits? Do you have any idea about the costs involved above and beyond? How about the out of court settlements just to save costs? Even with that, we agree it is the start of the problem. Government run healthcare is not a good thing.

Other then the military, I cannot think of a single government run program that is not a waste of money (you could argue military, but what cost Freedom?)

You say that trickle down has not been proven. Yet socialism has failed time and time again, yet you support that...

Sweden, they dumped government schooling for private schools funded by government. They are seeing a huge success in this program. I am hoping that is the start of freedom for the Swedish people.

Explain how Obama is not a socialist. He believes the bill of rights is fundementally flawed. He has advocated redistribution of wealth (economic justice) going back to the 90's. His community organizing, and in fact his presidential run, follows the teachings of Saul Lewinsky.

As far as benifit of the doubt. I do have faith in the people of the USA. They may go astray but they always do the right thing, it just takes time. Then we on the right have to clean up the Liberals mess.

Chimp Jones said...

1) Neither Fox nor MSNBC are reliable sources because they have obvious bias. I would no more cite Keith Olberman as a bellwether of truth than I would Bill O'Reilly.It's never elitist to ask for unbiased assessment of an issue and I don't think that we can get that from Fox or MSNBC. ( I note elitism as the latest pejorative and find it rather redundant from either side of the aisle)

2)With the euthanasia/Scandinavia thing.. the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence which you still didn't and now it's a third country? The link you provided is a statistical analysis of attitudes toward euthanasia in Norwegian physicians and in fact in the first sentence actually says that the Norwegian Medical Assoc "strongly condemn physician participation in euthanasia and assisted suicide."

As far as the Bill Of Rights is concerned Obama may have supported a "second bill of rights" the concept of which dates back to FDR and would have guaranteed benefits to every citizen. Myself I think welfare in fact needs a lot of reform. It ought to include participation in public works programs or at the very least community service of some kind. This would discourage people from making a career out of welfare as some do now.
As far as Obama being a socialist, this is just not the case. He's much less of a liberal than he is painted. I do not notice him advocating nationalization of the major industries, class struggle or a proletarian revolution. However as socialism it's self is not a discrete philosophy we could argue back and forth about it all day.
We can continue if you'd like.. this is fun stuff to talk about and I didn't cover all your points but I am happy to in another post. For now my fingers are tired and I need more coffee.
Peace and chicken grease
Me :)

Lee said...


Sorry for the long delay.
"The classic example is the Netherlands, where doctors have been allowed to euthanize patients since 1973. Dutch death regulations require that euthanasia be strictly limited to the sickest patients, for whom nothing but extermination will alleviate overwhelming suffering — a concept in Dutch law known as force majeur. But once mercy killing was redefined as being good in a few cases rather than being bad in all circumstances, it didn’t take long for the protective guidelines to be viewed widely as impediments to be overcome instead of important protections to be obeyed.

Thus, supposedly ironclad protections against abuse — such as the doctrine of force mejeur and the stipulation that patient give multiple requests for euthanasia — quickly ceased meaningfully to constrain mercy killing. As a consequence, Dutch doctors now legally kill terminally ill people who ask for it, chronically ill people who ask for it, disabled people who ask for it, and depressed people who ask for it.

Euthanasia has also entered the pediatric wards, where eugenic infanticide has become common even though babies cannot ask to be killed. According to a 1997 study published in the British medical journal The Lancet, approximately 8 percent of all Dutch infant deaths result from lethal injections. The babies deemed killable are often disabled and thus are thought not to have a "livable life." The practice has become so common that 45 percent of neonatologists and 31 percent of pediatricians who responded to Lancet surveys had killed babies.

It gets worse: Repeated studies sponsored by the Dutch government have found that doctors kill approximately 1,000 patients each year who have not asked for euthanasia. This is not only a violation of every guideline, but an act that Dutch law considers murder. Nonvoluntary euthanasia has become so common that it even has a name: "Termination without request or consent."

It was Dutch, not Sweden or Norway.